Ugly Duckling: Still Rocking The Gold Chain

Formed in 1993, with nearly twenty years as travelling hip-hop musicians under their belt, Long Beach, California trio Ugly Duckling have just released their fifth studio album Moving At Breakneck Speed. It is a concept album about a band on the run from a shady, hilarious cast of misfits who want to curtail their adventures. Returning to the playful, comic tone of their much-beloved debut Journey To Anywhere, the album is a celebration of the hip-hop lifestyle, of touring, and of the easy, polished interplay between emcees Andy Cooper and Dizzy Dustin.

With a well-deserved reputation as one of the best live acts in hip-hop, still backed by veteran turntablist and producer Young Einstein, the band came through Glasgow to play a packed and lively show at Glasgow's King Tut's Wah Wah Hut. Throughout their set, the emcees played with the crowd, encouraging participation with call-and-response sections, as well as lengthy skits and witty banter that was greeted with smiles, laughter and a good deal of jumping around.

Before the show, over a hearty bowl of pumpkin soup, The Skinny sat down with the band to talk about their progression through the turbulent changes in the music industry in the last fifteen years, their views on the golden era of hip-hop, and Dizzy's well-received collaborations with other artists, notably Edinburgh's own Capitol 1212. Nearing their third decade in the industry, the band are still just as energetic, passionate and humorous as they have always been.

So is this the back end of the tour or have you just started out?
Dizzy Dustin:  We're like halfway through it right now. We've done two and a half weeks in the UK, we have about a week and a half left, and then we have a bunch of European dates, so we get back to LA around December first. It's like a two month run for us, which is pretty crazy, but the name of the album is Moving At Breakneck Speed, and that's what we feel like we're doing right now! We're constantly on the move.

Have you gotten to the point where you're sick of each other's company, stuffed in the back of a van?
DD: We've been doing it a long time, so we're not sick of each other's company, but little things will start to get on you. Like I'm sure Andy has those little things about me that just irk him, or Einstein irks me... just those little things we gotta take an extra deep breath on. But besides that, we've been doing it a long time so we know how to deal with each other's bad habits.

This is a concept album – how did you come up with the 'band on the run' theme?
DD: We've been a group since 1993, and we've always felt that touring and doing shows was the most important thing for us. As well as making records, we knew we had to have a great live show in order to be able to put out music, because the live groups that started around the same time that we did fell off after about three or four years because their performance lacked. We were a little bit ahead of the game, or ahead of the curve, because we knew that one day, technology was gonna catch up, music was gonna be free, and it was all gonna come back to how punk rock started: you're gonna have to get on the road and tour, shake hands with fans. Being that we've been on tour forever, it feels like we're running, trying to catch up with something constantly. So that's the name of the album, and that's the concept behind it.
Andy Cooper: We started talking about having bad guys, and naturally, you have to have Germans! We started thinking, what kind of villains are traditionally in Western pop movies. So we had the Latin guy, and we had the sultry villainess, the incapable Germans... one guy has a little Igor henchman... it's an ensemble cast. We wanted all that silliness.

Has touring always been your main income, as opposed to selling records?
AC: Not always. Early on, we didn't make any money touring, and we had some advances, some salary, from dealing with record companies. But it slowly transitioned, and became the other way round. Now we're happy to get any money from record labels, and we make most of our living on the road. It's reversed as time's gone on.

Your live show has a real 'good times' feel – people jump around, sing along, and you encourage audience participation. Has your reputation as a 'fun' band ever felt limiting?
DD: We like having shows with a lot of energy, and the music we do is full of that sort of energy. People enjoy it. One thing you gotta do when you're doing a live show is make sure people are having a great time, and that they're involved in it as well. If you get that from them, they tend to remember that a lot more than other shows. So bringing the energy to the show is very important to us.
AC: Most good bands have a good range of material, but they usually lean one way or the other. They're either predominantly a happy band or a serious band. A good serious band does a little bit of happy, and a good happy band does a little bit of serious. We definitely fall in the second category – we're mostly a happy band, with little bits of serious stuff here and there. I think in order to last for any amount of time you have to be more than one dimensional, and to entertain people, it can't be just one emotion the whole time. You can't just get everybody to scream and jump up and down. So there are a few bits of the show where we'll try to take it down, and put a little bit of a message or something more philosophical in it. And then quickly return to 'let's jump up and down!' But you gotta do a little bit of both. Some of the material might not be all that reflective, but it's not that over-excited or over the top. You gotta give the audience a break – you can't be at ten all the time. There's a few peaks and valleys in a show.

You've spoken in other interviews about the difficulties of playing shows in Long Beach. Do you still find that, or have things changed in the last couple of years?
DD: I wouldn't say it's hard to do shows in Long Beach, it's just a different feel. Most of the people are your friends, so they're not real, real fans or supporters. It's always different when you play in front of friends than when you play in front of people who actually enjoy your album. Like, most of our friends probably couldn't care less about what we do. At the beginning of our career they were all excited, like: 'Yeah, yeah yeah!' Now it's just like: 'Free party... we're gonna drink, Dizzy's gonna be there, he's gonna drink with us.' But I would say that when we play the West Coast, or even the United States in general, it's a bit harder and do show out there. There's the expenses, the travel, and there's just so many hip-hop groups out there doin' it. So yeah, it might be a little tougher in the States.

You came out of Long Beach around the same time as the G-Funk movement, with Snoop, Dre and Warren G. Do you still find it hard to reconcile yourselves with that kind of hip-hop, or do you feel like time has told, and Ugly Duckling have found their spot?
DD: We got a pass. The gangsters loved us, so they gave us that Gangsta Pass. No... I mean, it is what it is. It was the golden era of hip-hop, and we listened to that stuff. The gangsta stuff, I love too – I love NWA, King T. But being dominated by the whole G-Funk era at the time was the whole reason we came up with the name Ugly Duckling, because we didn't fit in. But nowadays, like I said, I think there's so much music out there, so many people liking different types of music and different types of hip-hop, so it doesn't really bother us. It doesn't have any impact, either way.

One of the big myths about touring is that it's a very hedonistic pursuit – groupies, drink, parties non-stop. Do you guys indulge, or are you tempted to over-indulge sometimes, or do you keep it professional?
AC: I'd say we lean more towards the professional. And our fanbase isn't so wild and out of control, it never has been. So there's some of that available, sometimes... but I can only speak for myself; it's never been a big part of the lifestyle. But at the same time, one thing that's cool is you get to meet a lot of people, and you do meet a lot of pretty girls, and guys who really enjoy music and have great conversations... you make friends, over time. So there's definitely a party, but as to how hedonistic it gets on our scene... I've never found it to be a big deal.
DD: Andy's turned it up a notch this tour! He's started to hang out a bit more. I even saw him dance for the first time. But yeah, Andy's almost a hundred percent correct.
AC: You know what's funny though is... for instance, we did a show in Manchester last night. It was a good show. There were some pretty girls who liked the group. They'll come up, they'll be really sweet to you, they might even kiss you. But the idea that they're like, 'Where's your hotel room, we're having sex!' It's not like that.
DD: Andy doesn't get that, I get that! I'm the partier, I'm the drinker. And I have to tell people 'no, I'm married...'
AC: But the point is, you'll start talking to a bunch of guys who like the group, and then a bunch of girls will come up, being nice. You assume it would be as easy as, 'You're coming with me,' and there's some orgy going on... but it's just never been that kind of thing! It might be that for some groups, but not on our scene.

On one of your new songs, I Wonder Where She Is Now, you talk about long-distance relationships. Have you guys experienced this first hand?
DD: I keep my girls local. Nah, I'm married. I been married for a while. I've always been in relationships with people close to me, but Andy and Young Einstein, they've dabbled with girls from different territories. Of course, it didn't work out. Andy had a female friend in Australia. Einstein had one in Australia too. It's something about Australia... It's nice, the weather's beautiful. It's a lot like California. The good thing about it is that every time it's winter back home, it's summer there, so we get to go and spend summer there as well. It's a beautiful place, and the crowds are great,  the support is awesome.
AC: Part of that song was about having adventures on tour and meeting girls, but I was hoping that anybody could listen to it, especially guys, and think, 'Well, I remember that girl... it was summer break, and she and I had a little bit of romance, a bit of flirting. I wonder if she ever thinks about me? That was a sweet time in my life, I wonder if she even cares about it? Is she single? Does she date, is she around?' Because we all do that – especially in the Facebook era, where everybody looks up their old flames, and tries to find out what might have become of an old flame, or someone you dated, or had a crush on. So it's not just about girls we met on tour, because not a lot of that really takes place, anyway.

Storytelling has always been a huge part of hip-hop, and with this album I really felt like you were drawing on a wide range of influences, from cartoons to comics and old movies. Were there any specifically that influenced Moving At Breakneck Speed?
AC: We did one song called Run for the Light – it's kind of a jail break song. I remember watching, not that long ago, The Great Escape with Steve McQueen. There was also a TV show that was kind of based on The Great Escape called Hogan's Heroes, that was on every night when we were working on the album at Einstein's house. So there were bits like that where we thought, maybe we can add that in to the theme. The last song, Endless Summer, there's a surf documentary called Endless Summer from the late sixties, and we watched that a lot. It's just really beautifully done, so that was a huge inspiration for that song. But we've always liked travel-themed international adventure!

Dizzy, you recently worked with Edinburgh-based producers Capitol 1212. How did that collaboration come about?
DD: Shit, nowadays it's like, Facebook... everybody knows how to get a hold of you! But with Fly-T, I was surprised, because I really liked the track. And getting to rock with Mike G from the Jungle Brothers, and Caveman, a legendary British artist... The video came out really well, as well, so it was just one of those things I was really happy to jump on, and grateful, too.

Is the Blown Celeb project still ongoing?
DD: It will be released in January. It's pretty much wrapped up now. Ten years and we're finally done. Blown Celeb was never really a serious project – it was just me and a friend [Swiss Precise], he raps as well, we started throwing together some beats, and it kind of turned into a project but it was always on the back shelf. So whenever we had time to do a song, we'd just put it out.

Tell us about your label Kamikazi Airlines?
DD: With Kamikazi it was the same type of thing. It started off as a couple of friends trying to put some music out, and listening to some groups that we really really liked, like the Argyle Pimps and ESP, Bi-Polar Bear and Prime Element, and giving them the opportunity to get their music heard. So that's where we're at with Kamikaze right now – putting out music and finding new artists. We've put out some mix CDs as well as their albums.

Many of your lyrics are very positive in their outlook. How do you maintain that?
AC: How do we maintain positivity?
DD: I lie a lot.
AC: Part of it is, particularly on this album, if you go song by song, they're not always about us. Most hip-hop is autobiographical, and it tends to be fairly braggadocious [sic]. So a lot of the time, we're just trying to tell a story, or  the kind of music that we've put together inspires an emotion, and for whatever reason, musically, we're not really drawn to stuff that feels really negative or angry. We like stuff that's more melodic, and it doesn't inspire you to start whining and complaining too much; it doesn't really bring out darkness. I think usually the music informs the lyrical style. It's probably indicative of our personalities that we're drawn towards music with a more positive sound.
Young Einstein: Where we come from, it's sunny out almost three hundred days of the year, so it's virtually impossible to be in a bad mood. 
DD: A lot of West Coast rap, and particularly the music we do, it's nearly always on the happy side. The East Coast has a more negative feel. Of course we have gangster rap, but even with that, it's like a happy negative. They're talking about shooting people up, but they're bragging about it, like it's fun.

You've seen the commercialisation of hip-hop first hand in your twenty-year career. How do you feel about that?
AC: The values have completely changed. So I don't get mad at new groups or new rappers, because it's a completely different value system than when we were growing up. So I assume they grew up with this whole new value system, so I think it's unfair to hold them to golden era rules. It's been a commercialised, radio-driven music for fifteen years, if not longer. So if you were a kid in the eighties or nineties, you grew up on commercial hip-hop. That's what hip-hop is to you, and anything else would seem like a little sub-genre. Whereas for us, in our minds, hip-hop is not a commercial medium. It's not made for mass consumption. So it's two completely different views on hip-hop as a music and a culture. Like I said, the values of modern hip-hop are completely different, so it's almost like a whole other thing. So at least for me, I would look at it like, getting mad at it is just a waste of time, because it's a whole other mindset. Whereas, in 1990, you wouldn't have done a record bragging about how you were a mainstream star: now, you would. You wouldn't have talked about being a successful crack dealer back then: now, you would. You wouldn't have talked about how all you ever did was drink champagne and party with hookers, because the culture would have held you responsible for that, and would have said: 'That's not acceptable.' But now you need to do that. It's a whole other mindset.

Do you feel quite lucky to have come from that earlier era and mindset, where hip-hop was selling quite well, but wasn't so commercially dominant?
AC: Culturally and artistically, it was powered by people who really cared about music, not a mass audience, or a mainstream commercial market. Everybody really cared about the groups, and about the quality of the music, and it was never thought of in the terms that selling a billion records makes you successful. Being successful was being good – you had to be EPMD, you had to be A Tribe Called Quest. You had to be NWA – even if you were outrageous with your content, you had to have music that was interesting and of high quality.
DD: It was a lot about respect, then. If you wanted to be an emcee, you had to come with it lyrically. It wasn't just like, you could do the chorus throughout the whole song, making one pop tune. We came from the era of KRS One, Big Daddy Kane, Kool G Rap, Rakim. So lyrically, that was the most important thing. It wasn't about how many bitches you could pull. I mean in some ways it was commercial, with the big gold chain and the jewels. But it was all about your skill and what you could do, like Andy says. Nowadays it's all about flash.
AC: You had to have a little bit of flash, a bit of style, but you also had to have a lot of substance. But now it's mostly style. But there is still substance – there are good rappers out there. I mean, Kanye West and those guys – they're skilled emcees, but being a skilled emcee is not the focus. That's the difference. It's been turned on its head. I'll tell you another thing that's really important – when I was a kid, you listened to an album. When EPMD put out Strictly Business, I must have heard it like a billion times. Over and over. Stuff like Paid In Full – those albums lasted for years. I can't imagine what a kid does when he buys the new Lil' Wayne, whether he sits around listening to it over and over. Those guys put out new songs every couple of weeks – it's a whole different mindset. So I feel fortunate to come from the golden era.

Do you think that now the music industry is changing, and so many people are flooding the market with free music, that maybe that respect for production and content might come back?
DD: I think so. I mean, it is flooded right now. How many people open their inbox and go to social media sites and just listen to this constant flow of new music? It's a good and a bad thing. But with production coming back into it, I think that's one thing that's gonna stand out. A lot of these kids are doing stuff just for their Facebook pages, or they'll rap on someone else's beat. So I think good quality production can take it to a different level. Before it used to be you'd tour to promote an album – now you do an album to promote the tour. It's been flipped, and we're just fortunate to be able to do that. We've been touring for a long time, so it kinda works in our favour a little bit. But I think that will weed people out a bit – a lot of people will find it harder to do songs from their albums that the crowd will know. To them it's just another mp3, or whatever. So the crowd don't know the song – they're checking the performer out but they're not singing along. So good production, and an ability to perform, will definitely be what makes people stand out.

Moving At Breakneck Speed sounds full of energy and enthusiasm – do you feel like you're in a really good place now, as a band?
DD: I think so. I'm really pleased with how the album came out, in terms of production and ideas and all that. I wasn't a fan too much of the last album – I'm not saying I didn't like it, I did like that album, but I think this one's more us. The energy, the happiness, the vibe, the concepts – I think it all came out really well. I'm really proud of it.
AC: I looked at it like, you never know when it will be your last opportunity to make music for people. So I kind of thought, if this could be the end, just go out giving it everything you've got. Try to encapsulate everything that's good about our group. With the previous album we were trying to discover new things. With this one, we just tried to figure out everything we've done well, all our bags of tricks, let's put them in here and let's do the album that's us at our best. Because, sometimes as an artist you have to experiment and do things that might fail, just to see whether you can do it or not. At other times, you go to the wheelhouse and you focus on your strengths. So this time round, we just tried to do it traditional Ugly Duckling style.
DD: I have been getting a lot of feedback from people who feel we're back to the style of Journey To Anywhere and Taste The Secret. They're really excited about it. But at the same time, we've got a whole new group of listeners from Audacity and Bang For The Buck. So I don't know if it actually hurt us in any way. There are those people who think Audacity is our best album. But for this one, we did go back to our bag of tricks, as Andy says.

Do you have any places you particularly love to play?
AC: I love Tokyo. It's a surreal place to play as a Westerner. It's westernised to some extent, but it's also very eastern. It's like you're in the year 2080, but also in the 1950s, because there are a lot of people with short haircuts, wearing suits... but then it seems like there's flying cars. I know there are no flying cars, but it seems like I saw a flying car. Toilets are talking and all kinds of stuff. So it;s really futuristic but at the same time old-fashioned. People bow. Their politeness is amazing. The safety you feel.
DD: We've been to Spain – I really like Barcelona. I don't know if it's just the atmosphere, but it's just a beautiful place to be at. But I mean, wherever we go, we're fortunate enough to have groups of people... people who like our music are the same type of people. No matter what country, what city, what state, they're the same type of people. They've got a head on their shoulders, they;re not all so-called 'hardcore hip-hop.' They love music. So wherever we go we get that same type of audience and that same type of feel. It's a blessing. It could be Tokyo, it could be Sydney, it could be Glasgow. You're still gonna have the same type of people out there enjoying your music.