Jen Kirkman interview: 'Not just me, all women'
American comedian Jen Kirkman talks to The Skinny about writing her new book, how many critical comedy reviewers it'd take for her to change her set and the everyday shit all women get on Twitter.
On the release of her second book, I Know What I'm Doing – And Other Lies I Tell Myself, Jen Kirkman reveals a reverence for literary works which causes her to worry that her own work will be judged alongside the writings of the most canonical authors.
“I have this snobbery that only 'the greats' should write,” she says, “I feel like I'm intruding on territory that has some of the best people. It seems strange that Mark Twain has a book in the library and that I do too. If someone says, 'She isn't a good a writer as Oscar Wilde,' they will be right. But then I tell myself to calm down because I'm a comedian, and this is a book of funny stories from my life. I'm not going to be in the same category. Just as there are really great documentary films and then really stupid movies like The Hangover."
Jen Kirkman: "I really don’t know what I’m doing"
Both Kirkman's stand-up and writing are underpinned by acute self-examination but she manages to normalise everyday worries in a way which resonates with her audience. It's one of the aims of her book. "An editor originally encouraged me to make it more like having tips for women in their 40s," she says, "but as I was writing and my life was unravelling, I realised I really don't know what I'm doing. But if it does have a message it's to be fine with wherever you are at."
The theme often comes through in titles she chooses, such as her Netflix stand-up special, I'm Gonna Die Alone (And I Feel Fine), and her first book, I Can Barely Take Care Of Myself. Furthermore, her material is unflinchingly honest. In her podcast, I Seem Fun, she sits alone in bed emptying out the chatter and thoughts on her mind: "There are times when I try to make it a little bit funnier, but if there's a topic I just want to talk about then that's what I do." This makes for a disarming listen at first – it feels intrusive, like stumbling on something private (It is aptly subtitled The Diary of Jen Kirkman).
"This book is not a memoir as such, but it's about a period of time from before I got divorced to just after. Every chapter is a different thing. Some of it is a linear story and other chapters might be more of an essay about something that might not be popular with a lot of people, such as renting instead of buying, or there's a chapter in praise of friends-with-benefits relationships.”
Topics such as renting rather than buying may not sound an area a comedian would find much to go on, but with Kirkman it's about showing how we often obsess about received wisdom, or as she more straightforwardly puts it: “People not minding their own business.” This allows her work to be as much about the outside world, one of social expectations, as it does about our inner world.
However, it isn't railing against convention: "There's a chapter where I fall in love," she says, "I've been a teenager who dyed her hair black and said to people, 'We're all going to die someday, why do you go to your job?' – acting like an idiot and taking Morrisey too literally – and now it's just about being who I am. I actually enjoy the moments when I get to be conventional because everyone gets off my back for a minute."
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Kirkman's literary concerns – of being compared to the greats – contrast with how she feels about how her stand-up is received. Here, she's fairly certain a comedy reviewer couldn't tell her anything she doesn't already know: “What makes me think about my material is running over it with audiences and in front of other comics. I don't tend to listen to critics because they don't do what I do. I don't think people should take advice from people that aren't in their field.
"OK, if 10 critics came in on the same night and I had a show about, say, getting an operation, and I really wanted to pin it down that I wasn't afraid to get this operation, but for some reason all 10 reviewers then wrote, 'She's really afraid of this operation,' then I would be concerned that I didn't communicate what I meant to.”
Unlike in the UK, the review culture in comedy is slightly different in the US. There is a greater emphasis on recorded albums and specials, so reviews tend to focus on work that has been tried and tested in front of audiences more than here, where a show's probation period of work-in-progress and previews are all packed into the build-up to the Edinburgh Fringe. A hapless writer attempting to review is still no doubt infuriating, but maybe it ultimately stands out more as being a sole opinion. “When people review my live shows, if they don't get it, it can make me crazy,” she says, "but I can be very confident they are wrong.
“However, with a book,” she continues, “It's not my number one art form. You're faced with your own reality when writing a book, and you become aware of your limitations.”
As Kirkman explains, writing gives her a little more room: "In a book you have the chance to go little bit deeper. Onstage, going too much into feelings and foibles can comes across, without a punchline, as a little unhinged. In a book I can actually feel cheated if it's just funny-funny-funny.
"The feedback is different too with a book. In stand-up, if I talk about a break-up, that break-up might have been a year ago, but because the way it's performed the audience can take it in a literal way as happening now, even consoling me after a show. With books, it's clear that it was in the past. When you put something on paper, and it goes through the printers, it does seem to solidify experience and it feels like it has more of a feeling of closure."
Sexism, Twitter and giving women a voice
The feedback Kirkman receives from her comedy audience tends to be positive to the point of overwhelming. “I get so much positive feedback it can be uncomfortable. It can make me paranoid about not letting people down. Negative feedback I get is never about comedy; it's when I tweet about feminist issues.”
Or as we rather clumsily put it, "You get a lot of shit on Twitter, don't you?"
“It's not just me," she replies. "It's every woman. And I don't get shit for anything else.
“I block people right away – I'm not engaging them – but I often retweet a comment to show people this isn't just once in a while. It is all day long, it's at work, outside, dating, online. And I always get asked about how I handle it – more than there is a questioning of the people doing it. When people do admit this happens to women they think it is only the one time. It can be exhausting. By tweeting, then blocking, I'm not engaging. I see it being like putting those tweets on a wall – as if it were a museum or an art installation of sexist quotes.
"My experience on social media tends to be men telling me I'm a whore and to shut up, but then there's the other half [Kirkman's comedy audience] telling me, 'Go girl.'”
Since our conversation, while at the Melbourne Comedy Festival, Kirkman has taken to Twitter to encourage women to share their stories of street harassment after she was called a bitch by a group of men for not responding to them and then receiving the inevitable sexist replies when tweeting about it.
Kirkman's timeline currently reads as – and very powerfully highlights – the state of blissful (or willful) ignorance men live in about the unrelenting harassment women receive everyday. The results, which Kirkman has retweeted, makes for an uncomfortable read for men, while the experiences are simultaneously so universal and so obvious for women.
She's said her motivation is to 'give women a voice,' and we can add – as she told us before her Melbourne retweets – “I think it is helpful for guys to see how often it happens.”
Jen Kirkman: I Know What I'm Doing – And Other Lies I Tell Myself is out now and can be ordered here; Kirkman plays The Pub/Zoo in Manchester on 24 Jul